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Real War Stories From Former Yugoslavia: An Interview with Greg Payton

By VVAW

VVAW member Greg Payton toured parts of Serbia, Croatia, and Slovenia during late September and early October 1992. His tour was coordinated by War Resisters' International and peace activists and groups in the region. The purpose of his trip was to meet with conscripts and volunteers in the armies of the former Yugoslavia who are now returning to their homes, demobilized, injured, and traumatized. Greg is active in VVAW and knowledgeable about post-traumatic stress. Greg talked with WRL staff members Dorie Wilsnack and Ruth Benn in October 1992.

What did it feel like to be in Serbia?

Greg: After a six-hour train ride from Vienna. I arrived in Belgrade, Serbia. There is not fighting in that region but a lot of tension. I was surprised that I didn't see many Serbian soldiers on the street.

Everybody knows the war is happening, but the Serbians are in denial. Most people try to act like they are separate and apart from the war. The attitude is "It's not me, it's them. There's nothing I can do. I don't know why they're putting sanctions on me. Why do I have to suffer like this?"

I talked to some young people and they just don't know what is going to happened with their lives. One young woman wanted to be a research chemist, but she feels medicine is safer because of the uncertain future. She's angry about all these things happening now and she can't make a decision.

I went to a disco and this guy came over and sat down and told me he was a veteran. He said he can't understand the war. He was in a lot of pain because he was cut off from family and friends in Zagreb. He doesn't understand why they are fighting.

What is the effect of the sanctions?

The U.N. Sanctions against Serbia began in May and were beginning to have an effect when I was there. Lives are disrupted because of things like there is no gas left or it costs $10 a gallon. People who normally have freedom to travel and use their cars wait for the trolleys. There are lines for certain foods like mild and other goods and prices have gone up. Money is being controlled on the black market and salaries are cut. My host's father was making about 1200 marks a month. Now he is making 150.

Many Serbians wanted me to influence my government to lift the sanctions. They thought I should go back and say the U.S. should at least provide humanitarian aid. My response to them was to ask what they were doing to petition their government to stop the war. Then they were silent. Nobody ever answered that questions.

What peace activities did you participate in, while in Serbia?

I went on major television and radios shows in Belgrade. I was interviewed by the newspaper for the weekend section. The peace activists had very good media contacts.

The Anti-War Center organized a forum at a student cultural center. The dialogue was good. The turn-out was poor and there were other problems. The relationship between peace groups and veterans is nothing like in the U.S.. The form organizers went out to their way to get a veteran who they though would be appropriate, but when this veteran, Sevo Kovacevic, had a chance to speak, he grabbed the microphone and said," I would go back to the front tomorrow. With my one leg I'd go back. We can't allow them to kill us. The Muslims might have a jihad" I'm used to opposing viewpoints, but he created a very emotional situation and really dominated the forum.

What else is the peace movement doing?

In Belgrade, they hold forums, contact the media, and produce literature, but they didn't seem to have a handle on how to rally the people or how to follow through on some basic organizing techniques. One of the suggestions I made to them was that from now until the end of the war they should have something going on every week. They should keep their literature in the streets where people can begin to identify with them. Many people in Serbia weren't even aware there is a Serbian peace movement.

In Pancevo, just outside of Belgrade, I spoke at a forum and a good crowd listened for three hours, asking lots of questions. It's a small town and has a close-knit group of anti-war activists.

In Bosnia, I had dinner with WRI activist Marko Hren and his two roommates. All three of them had different opinions about the war—nobody could agree about anything. These are people who live together, have a political consciousness, and are in the peace movement, but they all have different ideas. One though the U.S. should intervene; she saw this as the only way to end the fighting. These differences have an effect on organizing.

What kind of treatment is there for war-related stress among veterans?

I went to Novi Sad in northern Serbia where I spoke at a forum with other veterans including a strong Serbian veteran, Sava Slojsin. He focused on the problems of veterans and how the government wasn't doing the proper thing for Serbvian veterans.

I visited a new post-traumatic stress clinic at the University of Novi Sad and we had a discussion with the clients there. During the discussion one of the men stopped me and said, "Listen, I'm still on active duty, I'm not a veteran." That was a problem with the kind of things I talk about; They are still at war, and it's very difficult to realize you'll have to mobilize to take care of stress problems. People can't even think about the war ending because the objective is so unclear.

You went to Croatia. What were your impressions of that trip?

To get to Zagreb you have to take a ten-hour bus ride from Subotica through Hungary and back into Croatia. You have to change buses after you cross the Hungarian border because the Serbian bus can't go to Zagreb. While we waited, two buses full of refugees pulled up. You could see the pain on their faces, but also the relief when they got off the bus. There were kids on the bus but no playing and no laughter.

When I arrived in Zagreb there we no one to meet me, and I got stuck all night in the bus station. I sat in the post office with two veterans and a guy who worked at the post office. One veteran was about 24 years old, and he talked about the atrocities-babies being slit in half-and other things he had seen and done. He couldn't find work, couldn't travel, couldn't do anything. At 24 years old he felt he didn't have anything else to live for.

I learned a powerful lesson that night. The postal clerk had helped me and he wanted to exchange numbers because he might come to New York. So I got out my notebook and opened it to a page for him to write on. He said, "Oh, no , I will not put my name on the page with him. He is my enemy and I will not do it." There was a Serbian's name on that page. The Serbians are in denial, but the Croatians are clear: "Kill Serbians."

What did you learn about military deserters or resisters?

Before returning home, I went to Vienna, Austria, to a big meeting with deserters from Bosnia, refugees, and reporters. One deserter on the panel started talking about his experiences and began to have flashbacks while he was talking. I had to talk him out of it because no one else knew what to do. He started talking about the atrocities he had seen. It was ironic that this happened during this program.

The peace movement in Austria has a support network for deserters, and many live there. There are about 60,000 known deserters, but neighboring countries have closed their borders to more deserters and refugees. They can't find work or get papers, and people in those countries are reluctant to support them because of job competition.

More personally, on my flight from Austria I started talking to the man next to me. It turned out he was a deserter on his way to Australia. He had been in the army and didn't want to go back. Here was a young man 23 years old, uprooting his whole life, embarrassed to be fleeing the war. His girlfriend and mother are in Serbia, all his teenage recollections are in Serbia, and he's going to a completely new world and has no idea what to expect. He was really scared about what he was doing.

Did you speak with any women veterans or get a sense of women's reactions to the war?

There are women in the military, but none of them came forward to talk as veterans. Most of the women I talked to are opposed to the war, both in Serbia, and Croatia, but the bottom line is that they are very afraid to say anything because they don't want people to think they're not supporting their men. Also the men don't seem to be open to women's opinions. The women are very frustrated because they don't have any voice.

Just to close up, did you come away with any particular things to do or ways that you see that vets here can be helpful?

I'm already in the process of talking to other veterans and sharing information about things that are taking place. Not only stuff about post-traumatic stress, but just daily organizational stuff. I'll be getting in touch with other veterans groups too like Disabled Vets of America.

I think the only thing that can happen is for the Serbians to have daily rallies to stop this war. People are afraid to say that they are opposed to the war because they are afraid they'll be ostracized from their community. The peace movement in Serbia needs to just keep hammering away at the conscience of the people.