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Interview with the Pan Africanist Congress: "We Are Going To Win"

By VVAW

(The following interview with PAC representative Mzonke Xuza was done in the office of the PAC permanent observer mission to the United Nations in New York in late January 1978.)

The VETERAN: Tell us about the Pan Africanist Congress (PAC)?

PAC: The Pan Africanist congress, since its inception on the 9th of April, 1959, has been in the forefront of the struggle in Azania...In 1963 through its underground activities, the PAC cause the biggest disturbances in the country. Because the judge who was selected to investigate underground activities said that it was the biggest threat to the country in 1963, after that the movement was banned; most of its surviving members had to leave the country and the other were rounded up by the regime and they were executed. And ever since then we're still treading on the same road toward the same goals. I would say that more than ever before, at this moment, the movement has gained a lot of attention from people and from the regime, the latest being an investigation which took almost over a year when they investigated the activities of the PAC in the country--it was supposed to have stretched from 1963 when the movement was banned by the regime up to 1977. And police minister Jimmy Kruger has said that some of the activities during the national uprisings in the country were fomented by PAC through the Azania Peoples Liberation Army (APLA).

The VETERAN: Student rebellions in Soweto have gotten wide publicity here in the U.S. People have begun to recognize there is a liberation struggle going on in South Africa. Can you tell us a little about the Soweto rebellions?

PAC: For a long time after the uprising started people kept on with the idea that his was just against the Bantu education (which is the system of education for Black people in the country) but we have found out that the students who rose up, they have traced the whole chain of oppression. I remember well one member of our movement who was sent to join us here--he was once a leader of the Soweto uprising--he said that the whole thing was a chain because Bantu education came as a result of racism and racism came as a result of apartheid and apartheid came as a result of capitalism and capitalism--well you know it's connected with imperialism--so it's a whole chain of oppression. So they were fighting against that; that's why it took so long and they are still continuing up to now.

The VETERAN: You mentioned the system of apartheid in South Africa; can you give us a little information about exactly what that is and how the PAC sees the struggle against it?

PAC: Apartheid, I would say, is the system of laws which were formulated a number of years ago to try and insure that a certain section of the population--the Black population--is under perpetual servitude. Cecil Rhodes, once governor of the country, said that the British realized the wealth of the country; the natives didn't know about it, they just ran on top and have to be treated like children. That's why in 1913 the Land Act came about where the surface of the country was divided: 13% for the African people (who comprise 80% of the population) and the rest, 87%, was allocated to the white population since 1913. And the whole system of apartheid came about to try to insure that situation because out of that you'll find things like the "pass laws" which force people to stay in their reserves and starve there. These reserves are the 13%; people starve there until industry demands their labor. And then they can get out of the reserves through a string of bureaucrats, magistrates, local chiefs and tribal authorities. Then they can go to industrial areas. As soon as they are out of work, they have to go back to the reserves.

The VETERAN: Removing the system of apartheid--is that the answer for the South African people? Or is the struggle against apartheid?

PAC: The struggle of the Azanian people is not only confined to remove apartheid because it's well know that, if for instance at this moment, some decree were to come out from the white pyramid that all schools are open, a lot of people still couldn't afford to go there--so why just remove apartheid?

What the people are fighting for is to remove such things as the 1913 Land Act so that the people of the country--the indigenous people--who comprise 80% of the population, who comprise the labor force of the country, they can repossess their land. They are the workers, the peasants of the country, and going along with the revolutionary ideology, the workers and peasants are the people who can lead in a revolution towards genuine freedom.

The VETERAN: President Carter and Andrew Young have come out against apartheid--Young especially is pushed as a champion of the people of South Africa and human rights; how do you feel about their role?

PAC: I think that people have to remember that Andrew Young is doing a job--there's nothing he can do or say that's against his superiors. Therefore, he cannot be regarded on his own--as an individual--as a champion for human rights, for freedom. He's doing a job for his superiors. Now as far as the Carter administration is concerned: you have to bear in mind that the real force in the administration and in Congress are the people who have the money, the multi-national corporations. To them what is important is to make money. If they can find a way of maintaining stability in the country, then that will insure their investments. They're prepared to make such a puerile statement about removing apartheid as long as they see a way or possibility of stability in the country and are sure that their investments are safe.

The VETERAN: when we were in Vietnam we saw lots of evidence of U.S. corporations--how do U.S. and British investments play against the interests of the people of South Africa?

PAC: You must remember that at this moment there are 1634 multi-national corporations that are operating in South Africa. And of those companies, 400+ are U.S. companies...You find it's much more profitable for them to go and expand the outlands in South Africa than to face labor problems and strikes in this country. It's much more costly here, because in South Africa the people who are laborers there are not allowed to strike, they are not allowed to strike, the are not allowed to form any unions. They are coming from the reserves, where they have been starved for so many years, where you'll find that because of these restrictions they'll be prepared to accept anything in order to support their families. That's how crude it is in that country.

The VETERAN: Last year at African Liberation Day, David Sibeko from PAC talked about the Peoples Liberation Army; what has happened since that time?

PAC: From a long time ago PAC realized that the only way to liberation was armed struggle. And there was a need for the formation of the Azanian Peoples Liberation Army (APLA) to be the military wing of the movement. One has to realize that the people have to be armed with the correct ideology so that together with the Azanian people they can carry out revolution because the man without ideology, without realizing what he is fighting for, is nothing else but a terrorist as soon as you give him a gun. So in collaboration with the people--the Azanian people--the APLA has been formed to spearhead the physical side of the armed struggle.

The VETERAN: Blacks were recruited into the military in South Africa during World War II; how were they treated?

PAC: During WWII, Blacks were recruited. Especially at the beginning, they were only porters--offload things from ships and carry food around and cook and things like that. Some of them finally trickled into the fighting units. What is typical of the South Africa situation, it happened that somewhere in North Africa the casualties of a certain battle involved South Africans and they were buried together, whites and Blacks. When this reached home there was such an upheaval that instructions had to be issued that the whites had to be removed from that whole end of the cemetery and buried somewhere different, not together with the Blacks. And at this moment the regime is training Black armies for the Bantustans. More especially I understand that the Transkei has its own army and these are the people who are used mostly against the armed struggle of the freedom fighters but who are unaware of this fact. We have to take cognizance that theses people have to be treated with understanding--they don't know who they're fighting against.

The VETERAN: how does the future look?

PAC: I would say that the future has to look bright in terms of the liberation of my country because we're finding that more and more people are determined to join the armed struggle. The determination is not based on gambling--tactics--as you sometimes hear. People say, well, the regime they've got so many planes, are so well armed, etc, therefore they can withstand this and that much. It's not a game of cards, of looking how many aces you have in your hand. It's that the people are just determined and, with the will to be free, we are going to win!

Telegram of Condolences
Pan Africanist Congress President Dies

(The following telegram was sent to the Permanent Observer Mission to the UN of the Pan Africanist Congress).

OUR CONDOLENCES ON THE DEATH OF ROBERT SOBUKWE, FOUNDER AND PRESIDENT OF THE PAN AFRICANIST CONGRESS. HIS PASSING IS A LOSS TO ALL PEOPLES WHO ARE FIGHTING FOR THEIR FREEDOM. WE WILL REDOUBLE OUR EFFORTS IN SUPPORT OF THE STRUGGLE WHICH WAS HIS AND WHOSE VICTORY WILL BE HIS MONUMENT.

Vietnam Veterans Against the War