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"The War Is Still Going On And The Indochinese Are Still Dying..."

By VVAW

An Interview With John Naveau

(John Naveau, 38, is an ex-Marine staff sergeant who was in the corps for 14 years. He left the service in 1967 to go into a VA hospital for tuberculosis and was discharged in 1969. While in the Marines, "Gunny," as is called, went to Indochina 3 times; the first in 1954 to supply the French troops at Dien Bien Phu, then two more times between 1964 and 1967. Gunny joined VVAW/WSO in the spring of 1972, participated in local demonstrations and also demonstrated at the Republican National Convention of last summer. In February 1973, Gunny decided to go back to Vietnam and he got a job with Lear Seigler, one of the big war contractors. He spent six months in Indochina, returning late in August, 1973).

Winter Soldier: We have heard a lot here in the States about the situtation of the political prisoners in Saigon jails. Did you have any direct experiences in this area?

John: Yes. At a coffee house in Saigon, I met some people who had been prisoners. The situation is really incredible when you consider that Saigon is supposed to be the "democratic" government. People get thrown in jail for just about anything that Thieu thinks is against him. One 14 year old girl was thrown in jail for 5 months because the police found a song about peace amongst her belongings. You can also go to jail for saying "Saigon government" or "Thieu regime" because this is considered anti-Thieu. People are paid 300 piastres for turning others in to the police. Plus it's a national law that you have to show the Saigon flag or go to jail.

W.S.: What about the POWs held by Thieu?

John: I saw a bunch of NLF POWs being returned. They put them out on an airstrip for 9 hours in the direct sun in 100 degree heat and they had to squat there without moving or they were beaten. But the Saigon government could not intimidate them and they were always chanting or singing songs. The people who saw them showed respect for them -- no animosity.

W.S.: The American people are pouring billions of dollars into the Saigon government. Has the corruption of the past years changed any?

John: Yes, it's changed alright. Now everybody in Saigon is corrupt. You can't do anything without paying every little official or hustler. Just taking a walk costs because on every block a policeman will stop you and ask for identification. Even if you have all your ID (you have to have six different Ids) he'll tell you that he must check with his headquarters. So, you slip him 300 piastres and you can go. I wouldn't recommend long walks.

W.S.: We've also heard a lot about the "refugee" camps run by the Saigon government with U.S. aid. Did you visit any?

John: I wouldn't call those camps "refugee" camps. I would call them camps for committing genocide. I visited a camp near Bear Cat, just outside Saigon. There were 28,000 people crammed into this barbed wire trap, which had no shade or trees or any kind of vegetation. This means being directly exposed to the sun in 100 degree weather. There was no running water there for these people. The Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN) would truck in water in rusty 50 gallon drums which would be half empty. Plus, the people only get 5 piastres a day for food, not enough to even buy rice for two meals. It was incredible, considering that American tax money paid for these camps. I'm not that young and I can remember the concentration camps of Nazi Germany.

I discovered that an average of 20 people a day die at this camp from starvation and thirst. These are the people Thieu is supposedly saving from the "communist" bloodbath. I was really shocked to find an 8 year old girl who had starved to death in one of the huts. She had been lying there for hours because no one knew what to do. It's almost become normal at these camps to find dead people lying around. And I think, "Jesus Christ, the American people are paying for this but they think they're not involved."

On top of these problems, the people at the camps face two other dangers. If they try to return to their farms, they are afraid of being blown to bits form all the leftover ordinance that we dropped there. I saw a couple of Vietnamese who had been snuffed by unexploded mines or bombs when they tried to plow their rice fields. Plus, the kids here don't know what mines look like and start playing around with them only to go up in smoke. If people's farms are in Provisional Revolutionary Government (PRG) territory, Thieu accuses them of being "Viet Cong" sympathizers for wanting to return home. That's Thieu's Catch-22. If you don't do what he wants, then you are automatically a "VC" sympathizer.

W.S.: What are the living conditions like in the Thieu controlled areas?

John: Well, the real differences can be seen in Saigon. There are three general levels of living. There are those in the government, like Thieu and his generals. Then there are the businessmen in the Cholon district who are mostly Chinese or Indian. And then there are the masses of street people. Thieu and his cohorts live like kings -- with maids, villas, and big Mercedes limousines. The same for the business me since they own almost all the businesses in Vietnam other than those which are foreign owned. The common people live like dirt. There are beggars everywhere and also prostitutes. You can't walk down a street without a flock of beggars or street kids hounding you. It's really sad because when I was in Vietnam in 1964, the people at least lived in their traditional ways with few beggars. The streets were clean and people had work and enough to eat. Now, I hardly can recognize the difference between these people and the filth that surrounds them.

The Americans here are incredible. They treat the Vietnamese like they own them. It's as if the Vietnamese were their property and the Americans can do anything they want to them -- kick 'em around, beat them, steal their food. It's like a bad movie, only it's for real.

W.S.: One of the most important aspects of the war in Indochina is the role that large corporations played in conducting the fighting. Since the removal of U.S. ground troops and planes from Vietnam, the American people have assumed that we are no longer directly involved in that conflict. You worked for Lear Siegler, a large war contractor. Can you tell us what role they are playing now?

John: Well, I guess the best way to describe their work is to call them mercenaries, plain and simple. The large companies, using American personnel, have replaced the American military. But all they are doing is hiring military men as civilians to do exactly the same job as before. They only thing they don't do is ground fighting. For example, if I was a flight mechanic in the Air Force, I would get a discharge upon showing the Air Force my contract with a company. Then I would go put on civilian clothes and go back to my job. Same job, different clothing. There is still a lot of brass in Saigon doing military advising and direct war work, but they are there on Temporary Duty so they are not counted as being stationed in Vietnam. They get incredible pay for being there, plus villas and personal maids.

Lear Siegler is cleaning up on the money by filling contracts for the Air Force. For example, the Air Force pays Lear Siegler $12-$14 an hour for a mechanic, but Lear Siegler only pays $2.10 an hour to the mechanic. All the ordinance, all the weapons, and all the planes are American and most of the ground support crews and many of the pilots are American. All the U.S. government does is give the money to Thieu so that they can say that these people are working for the Vietnamese, not the U.S.

W.S.: What about the CIA?

John; I can give one good example of their work. For four days there were ads in the papers for chopper pilots and chopper mechanics. Then there were four days of interviews for the jobs. I went to the place listed and there were about 300 to 400 Americans there from all over. Then this guy got up (he was from the CIA) and gave this rap. They were offering to pay $2400 per week for pilots and door gunners and $1800 per week for ground crew. They would work for the Cambodian government in name, but everything was American. Then he said: "This is your chance to kill all the gooks you want!" I got that quote on tape. In just those four days, over 1,000 Americans were hired.

W.S.: What about the rest of Indochina? Did you find out anything concerning Laos and Cambodia?

John: It's real easy to get to those countries by plane, which I did. You can bet your bottom nickel that the U.S. is still fighting all over the place. I met GIs who had gone out on ground patrols. You know, Green Berets. I got to drinking with them and learned about ground missions being conducted in Cambodia and Thailand and Laos. They had been in fire-fights. There are lots of ground-pounders in Thailand who go into Cambodia to fight so that the military can say that they are not in those countries. Plus, there are the guys who fly FACs, or observation planes, who lead air strikes by marking targets. It all adds up to Americans fighting the war.

W.S.: What does all this mean to you, John?

John: The war is still going on and the Indochinese are still dying at the hands of the American government. The thing that saddens all those righteous people who opposed the war are now kicking back and resting on their laurels. I spent 14 years in the Marines and know that they won't give up the fight unless the people force them to. And the Vietnamese are counting on us. They think people are out in the street every day fighting against the war. I'd be ashamed to tell them that people don't give a damn anymore. I'm not really articulate. I just want the people to know that we can't give up our fight for peace. We have to stop the war in Indochina. If the Vietnamese can suffer so much and still resist the U.S. military and Thieu, we can get off our asses and help them.